JOEL -
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn
of every creature:" (Col. 1:15)
Read the next scripture:
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (verse 16)
What are those invisible things God created? He
created the heaven(stars, planets, etc.) above our
earth, the earth itself, as well as plenty of things
that are "invisible" to mortals; like the atmosphere,
heat, different wavelengths of light, microorganisms,
etc. Invisible does not mean it can not been seen at
all, but it is difficult for man to see with his
mortal eyes; like God for example. God does not
normally allow Himself to be seen by man. He is
invisable to us, but not to His prophets when He
decides to show Himself to them. If God is
all-powerful does He not have the power to show
Himself to man if He wants to? Both Jacob and Moses
saw God "face to face". (Gen. 32: 30, Ex. 33: 11).
Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God
(Acts 7: 56). There had to be something that Stephen
identified as God to be able to say that Jesus was
standing next to Him. Sounds to me like God and Jesus
are both visible.
The problem in the Bible is that there are places
where people see God. (Gen 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2,
32:30, EX 3:16, 24:9-11, 33:11, Num. 12:7-8, 14:14,
Job 42:5, Amos 9:1 Acts 7: 56)
And there are other places that say no one can see
God. (EX 33:20, John 1:18, 1 John 4:12 1 Tim. 6:16)
Which scriptures are correct? When Joseph Smith
retranslated the Bible He was able to correct many of
these seeming contradictions through revelation from
God.
GREGORY - Doesnt Zechariah 12:1 go against the pre-existence (it claims that the spirit of man is created within a man).
JOEL -
"THE burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith
the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and
layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the
spirit of man within him." (Zechariah 12:1)
That's not the way I read it. To me it says that God is the one who creates the spirit that is within man.
GREGORY - How come LDS bishops are not under any obligation to have one wife and in the 1800s had many wives, while the Bible (1 Tim. 3:2) orders that a bishop have _one_ wife only?
JOEL -
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one
wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to
hospitality, apt to teach;" (1 Tim. 3:2)
Hey! Seven out of eight isn't bad :-)
All Mormon Bishops either are married or have been
married in the temple to someone. Our marriages are
eternal. Just because a Bishop's wife has died does
not mean he is not still married to her. The principle
of plural marriage is an eternal one but God can
command us to live it or not live it.
There were prophets in Old Testament times who were
told to have more than one wife. If God said it was
O.K. then, why would it not be possible to be O.K.
now?
At the time Paul was talking to the New Testament
Christians it was not proper for a Bishop to have more
than one wife. God can revoke or re-institute a
practice or commandment as He sees fit. Such is the
case with polygamy.
D&C 56:4 "Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord."
Plural marriage is righteous and acceptable conduct if God commands it through his prophet, but it is an abomination when the Lord has not commanded it.
Jesus Himself (through Mary) is a result of polygamy as is the entire House of Israel, God's covenant people. God established his covenant with polygamist Abraham and said that all nations of the earth would be blessed through him and his seed. Even Gentiles who accept the gospel and are baptized become the seed of Abraham by adoption. (Gal. 3:20). So all Christians claim lineage from a polygamist family.
GREGORY - LDS teach that once we die, the good and bad will all be part of the spirit prison. How can this be compatible with Luke 16: 19-26?
JOEL - This was just a parable Christ told, the point being
to show how wealth has no bearing on where we end up
in the next life.
We teach that those faithful members of God's kingdom
go to Paradise from which they are sent to Spirit
Prison to preach to those, both good and bad, who
never got the chance to hear it in this life. Perhaps
in the story, Lazaras had accepted the Gospel while on
the earth before he died, thereby qualifying him for
Paradise.
GREGORY - Can a 12-year old boy fulfil New Testament qualifications for a deacon (1 Tim. 3:12)? The qualifications for offices, etc are not optional. In the LDS Church, Elders can be 19-year olds. However, the NT states that Elders must be married and seem to be the father of children (Titus 1:5-7). Does a young, single man meet the NT qualifications for an elder?
JOEL -
"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling
their children and their own houses well." (1 Tim.
3:12)
"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou
shouldest set in order the things that are wanting,
and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed
thee:
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having
faithful children not accused of riot or
unruly."(Titus 1:5-7)
Can you quote me a verse that says the qualifications are "not optional". God can change the qualifications if He wants, to better serve the fast growth of the church in these latter days.
GREGORY - How can one explain JOD volume 13, pages 140-141 pertaining to miracles and John 2:23;10:25,37-38 and Hebrews 2:4?
JOEL -
"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the
feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw
the miracles which he did.
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not:
the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear
witness of me.
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the
works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father
is in me, and I in him."
"God also bearing them witness, both with signs and
wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the
Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"
(John 2:23;10:25,37-38 and Hebrews 2:4)
In the JOD Brigham Young is expressing his personal opinion about the necessity of miracles. He is saying that he personally doesn't need to see a miracle to confirm the truth of any doctrine. He has enough faith in God to believe the doctrine and live it without the miracle. But he goes on to say that for many others miracles are still needed.
GREGORY - How come LDS believe that the devil spoke some truth in Eden while John 8:44 states that there is no truth in him?
JOEL -
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of
your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the
beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there
is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he
speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father
of it. (John 8:44)
There is a diffrence in speaking a truth and being
true. The scripture says "WHEN he speaketh a lie",
implying that Satan doesn't always lie. He may speak
many truths in order to bring to pass one big lie.
Satan lied when he told Eve that she wouldn't die.
(Gen. 3:4)
The truth he spoke in Eden was when he said "For God
doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your
eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing
good and evil." (Gen. 3:5)
This was verified as a truthful statement when after
Adam took the fruit God said "Behold, the man is
become as one of us, to know good and evil:" (Ge.
3:22)
Satan made a truthful statement to get Adam to do
something against God's command.
GREGORY - How come the J.S.History claims that Joel 2:28-end was not yet fulfilled while the NT claims that it was indeed fulfilled (Acts 2:14-16)?
JOEL -
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour
out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your
daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream
dreams, your young men shall see visions: (Joel 2:28)
"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet
Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,
I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your
sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young
men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream
dreams:" (Acts 2:14-16)
Peter was explaining that what they saw and heard was an example of what the Prophet Joel said would happen in the last days. This did not mean that this prophecy was completely fulfilled. We are still in the last days and are continuing to see examples of this prophecy occuring(eg. Joseph Smith) but it will not be completely fulfilled until the second coming and Christ is here.
GREGORY - Dont Numbers 17:2,5,8; 18:7 and Hebrews 7:13-14 contradict 2 Nephi 5:26, Jarom 1:5 and Jarom 1:11? How could the Nephites have observed the law of Moses yet appoint priests contrary to Law of Moses (by appointing a tribe other than Levi?)
JOEL -
"Speak unto the children of Israel, and take of every
one of them a rod according to the house of their
fathers, of all their princes according to the house
of their fathers twelve rods: write thou every man’s
name upon his rod.
And it shall come to pass, that the man’s rod, whom I
shall choose, shall blossom: and I will make to cease
from me the murmurings of the children of Israel,
whereby they murmur against you.
And it came to pass, that on the morrow Moses went
into the tabernacle of witness; and, behold, the rod
of Aaron for the house of Levi was budded, and brought
forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded
almonds." (Num17:2,5,8)
"But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD." (Num 18:7)
"For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to
another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the
altar.
For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of
which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning
priesthood." (Hebrews 7:13-14)
"And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did consecrate Jacob and Joseph, that they should be priests and teachers over the land of my people. (2 Nephi 5:26)
"And now, behold, two hundred years had passed away, and the people of Nephi had waxed strong in the land. They observed to keep the law of Moses and the sabbath day holy unto the Lord. And they profaned not; neither did they blaspheme. And the laws of the land were exceedingly strict." (Jarom 1:5)
Wherefore, the prophets, and the priests, and the teachers, did labor diligently, exhorting with all long-suffering the people to diligence; teaching the law of Moses, and the intent for which it was given; persuading them to look forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come as though he already was. And after this manner did they teach them." (Jarom 1:11)
Since the tribe of Levi was not represented in Lehi’s
colony, their temple duties as teachers and priests
were performed under the authority of "the holy order
of God", also known as the Melchizedek Priesthood,
which Lehi did posess as did other Old Testament
prophets.
"The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a
priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." (Ps.
110: 4)
GREGORY - If God was a man who became God, how about John 1:14? It seems this goes against it.
JOEL -
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and
we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten
of the Father,) full of grace and truth."(John 1:4)
This is talking specifically about Jesus Christ, not about any other man who may be exalted and achieve Godhood.
GREGORY - Why would Jesus have needed to work out His salvation in this mortal probation to become like the Father (e.g. see "Our relationship with the Lord," page 8-9) since he was already equal with God before appearing in human form (John 1:1-2, 14 and Phil. 2:6-7)?
JOEL -
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and
we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten
of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:1-2,
14)
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery
to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him
the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of
men: (Phil. 2:6-7)
Was Jesus really equal with God the Father? In John 14:28 Jesus said:
"for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28.)
"I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my
God, and your God." (John 20:17.)
These scriptures seem to contradict the one in
Phillipians, but in a way they are all true. The
Father will forever be above Jesus in that Jesus
obtained the fulness of God’s glory from and through
the Father and as Jesus’ Father and Patriarch, our
Heavenly Father is and will be forever the
administrator in the affairs of his kingdom. At the
same time, however, because of the very fact that
Jesus did receive all power and a fulness of the
Father’s glory, he may quite properly be thought
of as "equal with God."
However, while Jesus was on the earth He was not quite
equal with God in glory. In coming down to earth to
live a mortal life Jesus gave up some of the glory He
had as a God with His Father. This is why He said the
following when He prayed to the Father:
"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I HAD with thee before the world was." (John 17:5)
The Bible also teaches that "...Jesus increased in
wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."
(Luke 2:52)
From these scriptures it would appear that Jesus was
no longer at an equal with God the Father while on
earth. To "increase in favor with God" means that
while living as a mortal He had to progress as a
mortal until He died and was resurrected and once
again received His full glory as a God. This is why in
"Our relationship with the Lord," Bruce R. McConkie
said Jesus had to work out His own salvation while on
earth.
GREGORY - How can one reconcile Galatians 5:4, where one is cut
off from Christ if one attempts to be made right with
God through the law, with 2 Nephi 25:25?
In light of Hebrews 8:13 and 10:9 and Galatians
3:23-25 also, could the Law of Moses have become dead
to the Nephites before the law had been taken away
fulfilled)?
How was the law dead to the Nephites if they kept it?
Since the purpose of taking away the first agreement
[Law of Moses] was to establish the
second [Law of Christ - Galatians 6:2], how could the
2 agreements co-exist?
How come Galatians 3:23-25 states that the way of
faith (Christ) came after the law, contrary to the
Book of Mormon? Could the Nephites be made right with
God though faith in Christ before that way came?
JOEL -
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of
you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from
grace. (Galatians 5:4)
"For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments." (2 Nephi 25:25)
Galations 5:4 was said after Christ came, fulfilling the laws of Moses. The people were therefore no longer justified following the old law. The 2 Nephi scripture was said 500 years before Christ came while they were still living the law of Moses. The law of Moses became "dead" in them because they had found out about Christ through the prophets and wanted to live the law of Christ now, but were still under obligation to live the law of Moses until Christ came.
"And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses." (2 Nephi 25:30, See also Jarom 1:5)
The two agreements did not really co-exist. Officially they remained strictly under the Law of Moses.
Galations 3:23-25:
"But before faith came, we were kept under the law,
shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be
revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us
unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a
schoolmaster."
Here Paul is describing the way things were for the people living in his part of the world before Christ came. They were not able to have much faith in Christ because they didn't know much if anything about Him before He came. The Nephites on the other side of the world, however, had received much more information about Christ; enough to instill a sense of faith in Him and His new law they would someday have. Would God ever condemn a people for having faith in Christ?
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