JOEL -
"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles,
secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that
miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments,
diversities of tongues." (1 Corinthians 12:28)
I don't think the intention of this scripture was to
place these things in a particular order of
importance. It is simply listing the characteristics
of Christ's church and Apostles just happened to be on
the top of the list.
Actually in our Church Apostles and Prophets are on an
equal in terms of authority. All fifteen of the
Apostles, which includes the three in the First
Presidency are called Prophets, Seers and Revelators.
The President of the Church is the head prophet who
speaks for God in all church matters, but the other
Apostles are just as much prophets as he is. Notice
how that scripture uses the plural "prophets" and not
the singular "prophet"?
And in another sense we are all prophets to some
degree in our own stewardships.
President Wilford Woodruff said of Brigham Young to a
congregation:
"He is a prophet, I am a prophet, you are, and anybody is a prophet who has the testimony of Jesus Christ, for that is the spirit of prophecy" (Journal of Discourses 13:165)
But none of us are Apostles except for the fifteen mentioned above. So in this sense the position of Apostle is above that of prophet.
ISAIAH - Doesn't John 16:13-15 and 1st John 2:27 indicate that there would be no need for prophets after that time? With the Holy Ghost as our teacher, as promised in scripture, how can anyone say that we reamin in darkness (or apostasy) without a prophet of God on earth? Would you say that the Holy Ghost is incapable of keeping us out of darkness?
JOEL -
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he
will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak
of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall
he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and
shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore
said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it
unto you." (John 16:13-15)
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1st John 2:27).
The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead and can do
anything. But He will not "keep us out of darkness"
unless we allow Him to do that. Because of our agency
which allows us to choose good or evil, we must choose
to keep ourselves out of darkness and close to His
light.
For a while after Christ left, the "spirit of truth"
did guide the people, but after the death of the
Apostles people became more sinful and started
preaching false doctrines, causing them to move
themselves away from the light of the Holy Ghost,
thereby losing their ability to discern the truth.
ISAIAH - 1 Cor. and the LDS - Many LDS can testify of promtings they receive from the Holy Spirit, but how come none would presume to stand up in a Church and prophesy?
JOEL - We do that every Sunday. The word "prophesy" does not
just mean to predict the future. The definition of the
word "prophesy" is :
1. Predict or reveal through, or as if through, divine
inspiration.
2. Deliver a sermon
(Websters)
We teach each other and reveal truths through devine
inspiration in our classes and we deliver sermons in
our Sacrament meetings every Sunday.
As Wilford Woodruff said earlier, we are all prophets
in some sense. The primary responsibility of a prophet
is to testify of Christ, something we as members do
several times a month.
"For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." (1 Cor. 14: 31)
I think it's quite obvious that what is meant here is that we should teach each other through inspiration so we may edify each other.
ISAIAH - How come Mormon, in his epistle to Moroni (Moroni 8) claimed that little children are incapable of sin (alluding to what Christ taught) while Eph. 2:1-3 contradicts this, with people being sinful by nature?
JOEL -
"AND you hath he quickened, who were dead in
trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course
of this world, according to the prince of the power of
the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children
of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times
past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires
of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the
children of wrath, even as others." (Eph. 2:1-3)
This scripture is just talking about people in general
or mankind, while Mormon is talking specifically about
little children. The Ephesians scripture uses the word
"children" metaphorically a few times, but not as a
description of age, but rather to identify those who
relate themselves to sin.
Children may be able to "transgress" a law of God, but
to commit a sin requires that they are capable of
realizing that what they are doing is morally wrong or
that they willfully disobey a commandment of God.
Small children are incapable of doing this.
Jesus said:
"Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come
unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt.
19: 14)
Saying that little are sinful and therefore require
baptism is like we are forbiding them to come to
Christ. What if they die before thay are baptized?
I have a beautiful 1 year old granddaughter who I am
quite certain has not commited one single sin yet.
ISAIAH - Why does a LDS receive a new name in the temple but the Bible makes it clear that we receive a new name if we overcome?
JOEL -
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit
saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I
give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a
white stone, and in the stone a new name written,
which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
(Rev. 2: 17)
Overcoming evil is a very important step in receiving the new name. A church member must overcome evil(or at least be seriously trying) if he wants to be eligible to attend the temple where he receives his new name. The Bible tells us that we will receive the new name; our temple ceremony is where we actually get the new name.
ISAIAH - Doesn't D&C 93:33 and 2 Nephi 2:14 contradict one another?
JOEL -
"For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and
spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a
fulness of joy;" (D&C 93:33)
"And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon." (2 Nephi 2:14)
I don't see how these two scriptures contradict each
other. The first one is telling us that we are made of
spirit and eternal elements, and that while the two
are together(spirit and body) we receive joy. It does
not say our bodies are eternal it says the "elements"
are eternal.
The second one tells us that God created everything.
But He did not create things out of nothing. God used
the existing eternal elements to create our spirits
and bodies and everything else.
Addressing the issue of creation ex nihilo, Joseph
Smith asserted in one of his final sermons:
"Now, the
word create does not mean to create out of nothing; it
means to organize; the same as a man would organize
materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God
had materials to organize the world out of chaos -
chaotic matter, which is element. Element had an
existence from the time [God] had. The pure principles
of element are principles which can never be
destroyed; they may be organized and reorganized, but
not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no
end" (HC 6:308-309).
Those not of our faith may not agree with this but at
least these scriptures are internally consistent with
the LDS teachings.
ISAIAH - Why doesn't the Book of Mormon teach that there is a spirit prison where the wicked go until they have been preached the gospel? Rather, it teaches that between death and resurrection, the righteous go to paradise and the wicked to outher darkness, going against the belief both wicked and good reside in the same place - "And it shall come to pass that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil...these shall be cast into outher darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth."
JOEL - We do not teach that both the wicked and good reside
in the same place. The term "outer darkness" can mean
any place that is removed from the light and glory of
God. In this case "outer darkness" is just another
word for the Spirit prison which is separate from
Paradise in the Spirit World. Even though the two are
somehow divided apart from each other(Luke 16:19-26),
Christ bridged the gulf between the two so the
righteous spirits could go to the Spirit Prison to
teach(1 Pet. 3:18-20).
There is another more permanent "outer darkness"; a
place where Satan and his angels and the "sons of
perdition" will be after the final judgment.
ISAIAH - How come the Lord enjoined polygamy around 1831, when D&C 132 was first revaled, while He also strictly enjoined monogamy (see D&C 42:22 and 49:16) - why the contradiction?
JOEL -
"Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and
shalt cleave unto her and none else." (D&C 42:22)
Any and all women a man is married to is/are his wife, so I don't see how polygamy violates this. This scripture is really refering to someone who might commit adultery(See verses 23-25). The "none else" are other women who he is not married to.
"Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;" (D&C 49:16)
This scripture doesn't say anything about not having
more than one wife; just that it's OK to have one
wife.
Also understand that the law of Plural marriage was
not yet an official doctrine of the church that God
wanted the saints to practice yet, when these two
sections were written. Even though Joseph Smith knew
about it in 1831, Section 132 that officially
introduces plural marrige scripturally, was not
recorded until 1843.
ISAIAH - Exodus 33:11, according to Hebraists and Bible scholars, is not to be taken literally, as Old testament writers often employed "ampormorphisms" to deity. Such conclusions agree with the NEw testament where we are told no one has seen God and so on. Why did Joseph Smith, in the JST, treat this passage literally?
JOEL - Because he was a prophet of God and as such knew
through revelation that it should be treated
literally. A true prophet of God would know better
than Hebraists and Bible scholars.
What about in the New Testament where Stephen saw
Jesus standing next to God? (Acts 7: 55). He knew it
was Jesus and could see that Jesus was standing next
to someone he called God.
ISAIAH - Why does D&C 93:8-14 contain false doctrine? In this passage, Jesus is demoted to 2nd place as the Son of God because he did not receive of the fullness at first. This is contrary to Jesus' claim to be equal with God (e.g. in Phillipains, Jesus is said to have been made equal with God, etc).
JOEL -
"8 Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he
was the Word, even the messenger of salvation.
9 The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit
of truth, who came into the world, because the world
was made by him, and in him was the life of men and
the light of men.
10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him;
all things were made by him, and through him, and of
him.
11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory,
as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full
of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which
came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.
12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the
fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;
13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but
continued from grace to grace, until he received a
fulness;
14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he
received not of the fulness at the first." (D&C
93:8-14)
The "received not of the fulness at the first" spoken of here refers to the period of time He was on earth. Even the Bible agrees with this. Jesus left the glory he had as a God in heaven to come down to earth (called the condescension of God). While on earth Jesus refers to this when He said:
"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5)
The D&C 93 scripture is refering to Christ as He began
his earthly ministry.
"And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness
at the first, but received grace for grace;" (verse
11)
As a man on earth He had to continue from grace to
grace as he grew from a child to a man.
The Bible explains this as well:
"Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." (Luke 2:52)
He was equal with God as it says in Phillippians before he came to earth (Philp 2:6). But then the next scriptures after that explain how He came to earth and was made in the likeness of men.(verses 7-8)
With a mortal body living on earth He had lost some of the glory he had in heaven(John 17:5), and had to again "increase in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and man" (Luke 2:52)
ISAIAH - Doesn't Mosiah 26:25-27 claim that those who died in ignorance, for whom LDS peform proxy baptism for, will not be redeemed? Why then do baptism for the dead?
JOEL -
25 And it shall come to pass that when the second
trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me
come forth and shall stand before me.
26 And then shall they know that I am the Lord their
God, that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be
redeemed.
27 And then I will confess unto them that I never knew
them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire
prepared for the devil and his angels. (Mosiah
26:25-27)
Alma is talking to His own people here, some of which were not believing what was being taught to them about Christ(See verses 1-2). So these scriptures aren't talking about those who never heard of Christ it is about those people who didn't know Christ because they refused to get to know Him during life, even though they were given the opportunity. When He said "but they would not be redeemed", means that they were given a chance to accept Him but refused. These are the ones who will not inherit the Celestial Kingdom; and yes, for these our proxy baptisms may be a waste of time. But only God can be the judge of who did or did not have a fair chance of accepting the gospel, so we perform temple work for everyone.
ISAIAH - Doesn't Jacob 3:3 and Genesis 8:21, in respect to the cursing of land by God, go against one another?
JOEL -
"But, wo, wo, unto you that are not pure in heart,
that are filthy this day before God; for except ye
repent the land is cursed for your sakes; and the
Lamanites, which are not bfilthy like unto you,
nevertheless they are ccursed- with a sore cursing,
shall scourge you even unto destruction." (Jacob 3:3)
"And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done." (Genesis 8:21)
God said he would not curse or smite the earth again "as I have done", which was completely wiping out the earth with the flood. What He is talking about in Jacob is only one group of people in a small area of land they were living on; not the entire earth. Also Joseph Smith made corrections to these Genesis scriptures which reveals that it was Noah(not the Lord) speaking of things he hoped and prayed for God to do:
"And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord, and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar; and gave thanks unto the Lord, and rejoiced in his heart. And the Lord spake unto Noah, and he blessed him. And Noah smelled a sweet savor, and he said in his heart; I will call on the name of the Lord, that he will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake, for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and that he will not again smite any more every thing living, as he hath done, while the earth remaineth;" (Joseph Smith Translation Gen 9:4-6)
ISAIAH - Why do LDS believe that when Christ comes again, he will restore the 12 tribes and establish the New Jerusalem in the Americas while the Bible states that Jesus is returning to the modern Jerusalem near the Mount of Olives in present day Israel (Zec. 14:4-11) to personally reign on the earth?
JOEL - Both things will occur. He will appear in both places
and establish two separate headquarters of Zion in
both the Old and New Jerusalems.
A proclamation about the New Jerusalem from the
Apostles states:
"He will assemble the Natives, the remnants of Joseph
in America; and make them a great, and strong, and
powerful nation: and he will civilize and enlighten
them, and will establish a holy city, and temple and
seat of government among them, which shall be called
Zion.
And there shall be his tabernacle, his sanctuary, his
throne, and seat of government for the whole continent
of North and South America for ever. In short, it will
be to the western hemisphere what Jerusalem will be to
the eastern".
(Proclamation from the Twelve Apostles, 1845)
ISAIAH - Why does LDS theology teach that the descendents of Adam and Eve believed in the Son, repented of their sins and were saved (Moses 5:14-15) while, accoring to the Bible, Jesus and His Sonship with the Father was revealed in the New testament times. The descendents of Adam and Eve did not even know about the concept of Christ being begotten of the Father. Such terminology associaed with this (e.g. repenting) is never found in the OT.
JOEL - That is precisely why God inspired Joseph Smith to write the book of Moses; to bring forth these doctrines and teachings that had been lost.
ISAIAH - How come LDS teach that there is no salvation outside the LDS Church while Acts 4 teaches that there is no salvation without Jesus only?
JOEL -
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is
none other name under heaven given among men, whereby
we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
We agree with this completely. Jesus is the only way in which a man can be saved. That is why all of the saving ordinances of our church are performed in the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus told us through His prophets in these latter-days, that for us to be saved in the highest kingdom of God, we need to learn and practice His true gospel which can only be found in His church. But we believe that everyone, regardless of their religion, will receive some kind of salvation in some kingdom of God.
ISAIAH - Why does D&C 27 call Adam (Michael) "Ancient of days" when this was a title for God in the Book of Daniel?
JOEL - Our latter-day prophets identify the "Ancient of Days" (Dan. 7:22) as Adam, who will preside at a gathering to be held at Adam-ondi-Ahman in Missouri before Jesus' second coming (D&C 116).
Joseph Smith said of Adam:
"Ancient of Days" appears to be his title because he
is "the first and oldest of all" (Teachings p. 167).
So we believe the person spoken of as the "Ancient of
Days" in Daniel is Adam, not God.
ISAIAH - Why does Ephesians 3:17 claim Jesus dwells in hearts while D&C 130 contradicts this?
JOEL -
"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that
ye, being rooted and grounded in love," (Ephesians
3:17)
"and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false." (D&C 130:3)
The scripture just before that one in Ephesians says:
"That he would grant you, according to the riches of
his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit
in the inner man;" (Ephesians 3:16)
Jesus dwells in us in the spiritual sense. It is His spirit that dwells in us, not His personage. How could Jesus physically dwell inside us if he has a solid resurrected body as He showed to His apostles? "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24: 39)
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