ISAIAH - What is the justification behind the Doctrine and
Covenants claiming that Jesus is the Meridian of time
while the New Tesament claims that he was the fullness
of time?
JOEL - You didn't give me a reference, but as far as I can
see there are only two places in the New Testament
where the words "fulness of time(s)" are mentioned,
but mean two different things:
"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent
forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law," (Gal. 4: 4)
In this case the phrase "fulness of the time" simply means that it was the right time for Christ to come to
earth as recorded in the four Gospels. It is not naming the dispensation of His time.
We believe that there have been different
dispensations throughout time that were presided over
by either a prophet or Jesus Himself(Adam, Enoch,
Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith). By
revelation we have learned that the name of Christ's
dispensation is the "dispensation of the meridian of
time" (D&C 20:26, D&C 39:3).
It is called "meridian" of time because we regard it
as the middle or high point of that portion of
eternity which is considered to be mortal time. The
word "meridian" suggests the middle. According to Old
Testament genealogies, from the Fall of Adam to the
time of Jesus Christ was approximately 4,000 years. It
has been nearly 2,000 years since Jesus' birth. The
millennial reign will commence "in the beginning of
the seventh thousand years" (D&C 77:12). After the
Millennium there will be a "little season," the exact
length of which is not revealed, but it could be
several hundred years. In the context of these events,
the Lord's mortal ministry took place near the
meridian, or middle, of mortal time.
We believe we are now living in the "dispensation of
the fulness of times" as talked about in the second
reference where this is found:
"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he
might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even
in him:" (Eph. 1: 10)
Paul is talking here about a future period of time
that he designates as the "dispensation of the fulness
of times", where all things are gathered together,
including Christ's gospel and the gathering of Israel.
We believe that our time now corresponds to this
dispensation.
"It is necessary in the ushering in of the
dispensation of the fulness of times, which
dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a
whole and complete and perfect union, and welding
together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and
glories should take place, and be revealed from the
days of Adam even to the present time" (D&C 128:18).
ISAIAH - I have heard many times that Latter-day Saints do not
believe that the crucifixtion played any role in the
atonement and it only served use for the death of
Jesus. Is this true? He did indeed suffer in
Gethsemane yet many passages in the New Testament
seems to indicate that the crucifixtion played an
important role in the atonement as well.
JOEL - You heard wrong. We have never denied that the
cricifixion was an important part of the atonement. If
Christ had not suffered and died on the cross He would
not have been resurrected and made eternal life
possible for us; a very important part of the atonement.
We do believe that most of the suffering for our sins
did occur in the garden. The Bible says while in
Gethsemane:
"And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven,
strengthening him.
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and
his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling
down to the ground." (Luke 22: 44)
Sounds like the Bible agrees that He did a lot of
suffering in Gethsamane. Why else would He sweat blood
and need an angel from heaven to give him strength?
There were no helpful angels or sweating of blood
mentioned at the cross.
ISAIAH - How come Joseph Smith claimed to have discovered an
alter allegedly used by Adam, even though, over the
years (approx. 6-7,000), vegetation would have
accumulated over time and would have covered the whole
area and it would have been impossible to have located
it without having to dig extensively into the ground?
The same for the New York hill (Mormon 6:6) where the
golden plates were meant to have been deposited by
Moroni in the 5th century A.D.
JOEL - Perhaps they were covered over by vegitation and dirt
but then erosion exposed them again. Sorry I wasn't
there to watch it happen.
ISAIAH - The book of Romans leaves no exemption to the sin and
guilt that Adam passed on to all; no exceptions are
made (Romans 5:12–15). Furthermore, it clearly states
that "there is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans
3:10–12). How come then, in Moroni 8, the Book of
Mormon claims that little children are incapable of
(i) committing sin and (ii) being exempt from the
curse of Adam?
JOEL - So are you telling me that my one year old
granddaughter who does not yet know right from wrong,
is capable of commiting sin? I haven't seen it happen yet.
Sin is the willfull violation of God's commandments. A
small child might indeed unkowingly break a
commandment of God, but you can't call it a sin until
they are able to comprehend right from wrong and know
what the commandments are and then purposely break them.
Here are the scriptures you refered to:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is
not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even
over them that had not sinned after the similitude of
Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that
was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For
if through the offence of one many be dead, much more
the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by
one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto
many."(Romans 5:12–15)
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not
one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that
seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together
become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good,
no, not one." (Romans
3:10–12)
I don't see how these scriptures say that Adam's sin
and guilt were passed on to us. They only say that
what Adam did brought death into the world and the
capability for man to sin. But we did not inherit
Adam's sin(transgression).
Notice it is called "Adam's transgression" and not "Adam's sin".
A transgression is something a child might do, not knowing they are
doing something wrong, which of course is the state
Adam was in before he partook of the fruit.
The Apostle Paul is talking to adult members of the
church here and is speaking in general terms about
mankind.
However, the Moroni 8 scripture is talking specifically about little children.
Jesus said:
"Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come
unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt.
19: 14)
A person with unrepented sins cannot go into Christ's
Kingdom of heaven after death(Matt 4:17). Saying that
little children are sinful is like we are forbiding
them to come to Christ. What if they die before they
know how to repent or are baptized?
ISAIAH - How come, in the Book of Mormon, (3 Nephi 12:2; Moroni
8:11) the remission of sins is the accomplishment of
baptism: "Yea, blessed are they who shall be baptized,
for they shall receive a remission of their sin.
Behold baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling
the commandments unto the remission of sin," but in
the (Doctrine and Covenants 20:37), the direct
opposite is stated: "All those who humble themselves
and truly manifest by their works that they have
received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of
their sins, shall be received by baptism into his
church"?
JOEL - Baptism is performed for two reasons in our Church.
The first is for the remission of sins as stated in
the Book of Mormon; the second is for membership into
Christ's Church as stated in the D&C scripture. So
both scriptures are correct.
"Receiving the spirit of Christ unto remission of sins", doesn't mean the sins
have been forgiven yet; it only means that the sinner
has prepared himself by repenting of the sins and
accepting the spirit of Christ so that baptism will
wash away his sins.
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,
and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the
Lord." (Acts 22: 16)
ISAIAH - A "gift" is defined as "Something that is bestowed
voluntarily, freely, and without payment" and "grace"
is defined as "God's undeserved, unmerited favor." How
come in D&C 14v6-7 it states "Keep my commandments in
all things. And, if you keep my commandments and
endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which
gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God"? These
seem to indicate that we must do something in order to
have grace and the gift, notwithstanding their
semantics indicating the opposite.
JOEL - Eternal life is a gift because we could never do
enough to earn it on our own even though God wants us
to do all we can so we can learn and grow from the
experience.
Where did you get that deffinition of grace? How do
you know it is correct? My deffinition of grace does
not mean a free ticket into heaven. It means doing all
I can to live a righteous life, and then having God
make up the difference for me so I can obtain eternal
life. I cannot do it all myself.
"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our
children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ,
and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by
grace that we are saved, after all we can do. (2 Ne.
25: 23)
It's like the story where a father tells his child to
work hard and save his money so he can buy a new bike.
So the child works hard and earns and saves his money.
The time comes to buy the bike but the child learns it
costs $85.00 and he only has $10.00. The child is
worried until his father says, "That's OK, because I
love you so much, I will pay the difference for you".
The child gets the bike plus the growth and experience
of working for the money he earned.
This is similar to how God's grace works for us.
Please see my answer on salvation and grace at
this page.
ISAIAH - Why was there an apostasy when the 3 Nephites and John
held a valid priesthood and were meant to have been
converting people (and are still meant to today) to
the true gospel? Surely they would be (and have been)
able to baptize people as they could convert them.
JOEL - I don't know. I'll ask them the next time I see them.
Oh, and don't call me Shirley :-)
ISAIAH - In D&C 88, we learn that all light derives from Jesus in verse 7, etc. Isn't this scientifically
innaccurate?
JOEL -
"Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As
also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and
the power thereof by which it was made." (D&C 88:7)
Jesus created everything which means everything gets
its power from Jesus, including the sun, the moon the
stars, etc. Jesus, being God, can do whatever He wants
whether it is scientifically accurate or not.
The "light of Christ" is not the same as the light
from the sun in that scripture. The light of Christ is
the truth spoken of in the sentence before that.
The light of Christ(also called the Spirit of Christ)
is the spirit that eminates from Christ like light and
gives all men the ability to know right from wrong.
"Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should
search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may
know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon
every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly
will be a child of Christ." (Moroni 7:18)
"For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every
man, that he may know good from evil;" (Moroni 7:16)
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