JOEL -
"And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi,
under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard
in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in
wicked practices, such as like unto David of old
desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon,
his son. (Jacob 1:15)
"VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines" (D&C 132:1)
For the Nephites, "desiring" many wives and concubines
was a wicked thing, because God had not commanded them
to live that principle.
He told the Nephites:
"Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the
word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among
you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall
have none;
For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed
unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they
shall hearken unto these things." (Jacob 2:27, 30)
It was not wicked for David because God did commaned him to have them and they were all given to him by God except for in the case of Uriah's wife.
JAMES - According to Mosiah 3:19, the natural man is an enemy to God. How come Brigham Young states that the natural man is of God (JOD, volume 1, pages 7-8)?
JOEL - You will have to be more specific. Brigham Young does talk about the "natural man", but I don't see where he says the natural man is of God. The natural man certainly is of God in the sense that God created man, but God did not create the things that man does that makes him "natural"; being proud, carnal, or sensual or refusing to develop spirituality or to accept the doctrines of Christ.
JAMES - According to a number of LDS sources, all will receive a measure of salvation. Doesnt this go against Alma 28:21-23 and Moses 6:29?
JOEL - There is no Alma 28:21-23.
"Wherefore, they have foresworn themselves, and, by their oaths, they have brought upon themselves death; and a hell I have prepared for them, if they repent not;" (Moses 6:29)
The LDS do not believe that "all" will receive a
measure of salvation but they believe that most will.
In the Moses scripture God is talking about the truly
wicked people who commit murder and follow Satan.
Murder is an unpardonable sin which can put a person
in Hell after the final judgment.
But the word "hell" does not just refer to the final
home for satan and His angels; it is also another name
for the spirit prison where people who have not heard
or accepted the gospel will go to be taught. After
this is when they will receive a measure of salvation.
JAMES - How come D&C 47:3-4 and D&C 69:2-3 fail to come to pass? John Whitmer was never allowed to write a history of the Church to his alleged incompetency (see Joseph Smiths 1838 Diary - April 9, 1838).
JOEL - This is not a prophecy. It is simply instructions from God of things He wanted him to do. Such things are always subject to man's free will and his desire to obey God. Notice in D&C 47 verse 4 it says:
"Wherefore, it shall be given him, inasmuch as he is faithful"
Perhaps he was not faithful enough to be able to do the job right. He was later excommunicated from the church. But he did serve as Church recorder of history from 1831 until 1834.
JAMES - About JOD, volume 2, page 338 and Orson Pratts comments on the Holy Ghost - can you explain why an apostle in the Church 25 years after its formation did not know whether or not the Holy Ghost existed?
JOEL - Orson Pratt said:
"I will tell you what I believe in regard to the Holy
Ghost's being a person: but I know of no revelation
that states that this is the fact, neither is there
any that informs us that it is not the fact, so we are
left to form our own conclusions upon the subject, and
hence some have concluded that they were right, and
that others were not. It is in fact a matter of doubt
with many, and of uncertainty, I believe, with all,
whether there be a personal Holy Spirit, or not.
I am inclined to think, from some things in the
revelations, that there is such a being as a personal
Holy Ghost, but it is not set forth as a positive
fact, and the Lord has never given me any revelation
upon the subject, and consequently I cannot fully make
up my mind one way or the other.
I know there are indications that such is the fact;
for instance, where the personal pronoun is applied to
the Spirit, as "He shall lead and guide you into all
truth;" "he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever
he shall hear, that shall he speak;" and "he shall
take of the things of the Father, and show them unto
you.
From these and many other passages of the same kind
and bearing, we may draw the conclusion that the Holy
Spirit is actually a person. Then, again, there are
other revelations where the pronoun it is applied,
such for instance as, "The Spirit itself maketh
intercession with groanings that cannot be uttered."
And many other revelations convey the idea that the
Spirit is a diffused substance.
Just so in the Book of Mormon, we find many of those
terms, and consequently we are left to our own
conjecture respecting there being a personal Holy
Spirit; but one thing is certain, whether there is
personal Holy Spirit or not, there is an inexhaustible
quantity of that Spirit that is not a person. This is
revealed; this is a fact. And it is just as probable
to my mind, that there should be a portion of it
organized into a person, as that it should exist
universally diffused among all the materials in space"
(Orson Pratt)
Orson Pratt was not saying that he doesn't know if the
Holy Ghost exists. If you read the entire speech you
will see he was speaking of the certain existance of
the Holy Ghost.
When he said:
"It is in fact a matter of doubt with many, and of
uncertainty, I believe, with all, whether there be a
personal Holy Spirit, or not."
He was saying that he believes that there are many who
doubt the existance of the Holy Ghost(he was not
including himself among them).
He was saying that he was unsure if He existed as
something that looks like a person as opposed to some
"diffused substance".
Also, there is much doubt about the accuracy of many
things written in the JOD. Many of the speeches were
written down in shorthand by someone else as they
heard them from the puplit and then later
reconstructed into an address. The speaker often did
not have the opportunity to proofread the speech
before publication.
JAMES - Why did the LDS Church continue practicing polygamy, even after the 1890 proclamation. For example, there were more than 250 polygamous marriages between 1890 to 1904 in Mexico, Canada and the USA by LDS. If Church leaders knew the manifesto was from God, why did they continue polygamy for over a decade?
JOEL - After having lived the principle at some sacrifice for
half a century, many devout Latter-day Saints found
ending plural marriage a challenge almost as complex
as was its beginning in the 1840s. How do you suddenly
break up families that are dependent on each other for
survival? They knew the manifesto was from God but it
took some time for them to be able to change their
lives in order to comply with it.
It is easy for us now to ask why they didn't quit
immediately, but we did not live at that time. We
cannot pass judgment on something that we did not
experience. Since 1904, it has been uniform Church
policy to excommunicate any member either practicing
or openly advocating the practice of polygamy. Those
who do so today, principally members of fundamentalist
groups, do so outside the Church.
JAMES - In the History of the Church, volume 2 page 127, it states that to sell the land, it would be a denial of the faith and according to volume 3 page 4 the selling of Church lands by Phelps and Whitmer were deemed a hellish principle and that they had flatly denied the faith in doing so. How come Joseph Smith counselled to sell all the land in Jackson County? (see volume 3 page 274) when LDS teach Zion is Jackson Country in MO, something which God Himself allegedly revealed to Joseph Smith?
JOEL - They certainly didn't want to sell the land, but
within that same article Oliver Cowdery describes the
persecution the saints were under, being physically
driven from their land and/or possibly being forced to
sell the land that was supposed to be the future
gathering place for the saints.
A church elder named Lyman Wright was just expressing
his own personal opinion about Phelps and Whitmer
selling land.
By the time Joseph Smith counselled to sell the
land(writing as a prisoner from Liberty jail),
conditions had deteriorated quite drastically and they
were finally forced to try and sell it as they moved
themselves to Far West to escape the persecution and
threats of murder and violence.
Actually the Church now again owns quite a bit of the
same land in Jackson County that they had to sell. So
the loss of land was only temporary.
JAMES - If, as the LDS Church teaches, the Holy Ghost can only be in one place at a time, how can the Holy Ghost in dwell in millions of Christians all over the world (e.g. see D&C 130:22)?
JOEL -
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible
as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a
body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.
Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."
(D&C 130:22)
The LDS Church teaches that the spiritual personage of the Holy Ghost, which is in the form of a man but consists only of spirit, can only be in one place at a time. But He can be everywhere in that His spiritual influence radiates throughout the universe and can dwell within a man as if the personage of the Holy Ghost were inside the man.
JAMES - About Cowdery's errors in the chronology of Joseph Smiths history in the Messenger and Advocate where he placed the First Vision in 1823 - why did he not mention any 1820 vision when he was assisted by Joseph Smith? (About the First Vision - JOD volume 6 page 29).
JOEL - Oliver Cowdery was not writing about the "first vision" in that account. He began the historical record with the appearance of Moroni to Joseph Smith(1823). I don't know why he did not start further back in time when God appeared to Joseph(1820). This was supposed to be a history of the Church and not a history of Joseph Smith. Church history began with its organization and the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830. Since the Book of Mormon was the source for most of the Church doctrine it was logical to explain the origin of the Book of Mormon as part of the church history.
JAMES - Doesnt the 1835 D&C page 45 (..for I am God and there is none else like me), Moses 1:6 and Alma 11:28-29 contradict the idea that God the Father had a Heavenly Father, etc?
JOEL - If our Heavenly Father does have a Heavenly Father
then the senior one is not like His son because He has
obtained more glory and eternal increase than His son
has.
But as far as we are concerned there is no other
Heavenly Father that we would worship. If there are
others, they reign in different universes apart from
ours.
I will quote President Hinckley on this subject:
"That gets into some pretty deep theology that we
don't know very much about." (Sunday Interview -- By
Don Lattin, Chronicle Religion Writer The San
Francisco Chronicle, Sunday April 13, 1997)
JAMES - If Christ gave a commandment for the church to bear His name (see 3 Nephi 27:8 and D&C 21:11), why did church leaders drop out his name entirely? (see History of the Church, volume 2 pages 62-63).
JOEL -
"And how be it my church save it be called in my name?
For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be
Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man
then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in
my name then it is my church, if it so be that they
are built upon my gospel." (3 Nephi 27:8)
"This being an ordinance unto you, that you are an elder under his hand, he being the first unto you, that you might be an elder unto this church of Christ, bearing my name" (D&C 21:11)
I believe it was only for a year or two(1834-1835)
when the church was called "Church of Latter-day
Saints".
An additional note on that same page of the History of
the Church, printed in the "Evening and Morning Star",
explains:
"It will be observed from the heading that the elders assembled in the conference are called "Elders of the Church of Christ". This is pointed out in order that it may be seen that while the conference adopted the title "The Church of the Latter-day Saints", and the church was for some years called by that name, it was not the intention to regard the Church as any other than the "Church of Christ". (History of the Church, volume 2 pages 62-63).
Even so, the word "Saints" implies that they were
followers of Christ. But this was not the official
name as far as God was concerned.
The Church did not receive its official current name until
1838 when God revealed it in a revealtion to Joseph
Smith:
"For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (D&C 115:4)
JAMES - (Refer to Doctrine and Covenants 5:13-15) - Can you reconcile the statement that _only_ three would view the plates with the testimony of eight witnesses who saw and hefted the plates of the Book of Mormon?
JOEL -
"I will give them power that they may behold and view
these things as they are;
And to none else will I grant this power, to receive
this same testimony among this generation, in this the
beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my
church out of the wilderness-clear as the moon, and
fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.
And the testimony of three witnesses will I send forth
of my word." (Doctrine and Covenants 5:13-15)
The two scriptures before this say:
"And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you. Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them." (verses 11-12)
The three witnesses were specifically called and ordained of God to testify, and they heard God declare the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The other 8 witnesses were not specifically called and ordained for this nor did they hear God declare the truthfulness of these things(nor did they see the angel Moroni). So they did not receive the "same testimony" as the three witnesses did.
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