SCOTT - How come Joseph Smith added baptism to the gospel (D&C
39:6) while the apostle Paul excluded baptism from the
gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17) - see also Acts 10 where
Cornelius was saved before baptism -
Smith added to the gospel, which is condemned in the
Bible.
Additionally, doesn't 1 Cor. 15:1-4 (in light of 1
Cor. 17) show that baptism is not necessary for
salvation?
JOEL - In the 1 Corinthians 1 scriptures, Paul said:
"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am
of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of
Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or
were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but
Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own
name.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas:
besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach
the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross
of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that
perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is
the power of God."
Paul was instructing some confused saints about who it
was they were being baptized for. Paul was not saying
baptism wasn't necessary; he was an Apostle of
Jesus, and was explaining to them that it wasn't his
responsibility to baptize people; that could be taken
care of in their own local churches. It was his job to
preach the Gospel. Later he continued to preach about
the importance of baptism:
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ
have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27)
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen
with him through the faith of the operation of God,
who hath raised him from the dead. (Col 2:12)
"Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of
hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal
judgment." (Heb 6:2)
Baptism was so important and necessary that Jesus, who
had no sins, allowed Himself to be baptized to
"fullfill all righteousness" (Matt 3:16)
Jesus said:
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but
he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)
Paul did not change this doctrine.
1 Cor. 15:1-4 says:
"Moreover brethren, I declare unto you the gospel
which I preached unto you, which also ye have
received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what
I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I
also received, how that Christ died for our sins
according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he arose again the
third day according to the scriptures:"
I don't see how this scripture says that baptism isn't
necessary. If they "keep in memory" what he preached
to them, they would have been baptized, because of
what he taught in the scriptures I listed above.
SCOTT - Don't the following negate the possiblity of a
pre-exisatnce -
Jeremiah 27:5 and Genesis 2:7, John 3:13,31 and
8:23-24. Moreover, doesn’t 1 Corinthians 15:46 seem to
say that we all take on physical bodies first and
later are resurrected with a glorious, spiritual
resurrected body?
JOEL -
"I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are
upon the ground, by my great power and by my
outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it
seemed meet unto me. (Jeremiah 27:5)
All this says is that god created the earth and man
and the animals. How is this proof of no
pre-existance?
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the
ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of
life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)
"breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" means
that he placed his spirit into his body, a spirit that
existed with Him in a pre-earth life.
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in
heaven." (John 3:13)
To me this scripture is good evidence of a pre-mortal
life. The word "heaven" can be used to mean coming
from wherever God is, which includes the pre-mortal
realm.
"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from
above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your
sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die
in your sins." (John 8:23-24)
I don't see how these scriptures go against a
pre-mortal existance. Jesus said He is from above because He was spiritually and physically the son of God.
On the other hand, the bodies of all human beings are made from the dust of this earth, and the spirits
come from God as the following Ecclesiastes scripture tells us:
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave
it.(Eccl. 12: 7)
In order for the spirit to "return" to God means that it must have come from Him in the first place.
"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but
that which is natural; and afterward that which is
spiritual." (1 Cor. 15:46)
Our bodies are not spiritual at first until our
spirits are placed in them. After we die we are
spiritual again.
All your scriptures are subject to how one wants to interpret them. There are several scriptures that do
suggest a pre-earth existance. In the following scriptures God is talking to Job about the creation of
the earth:
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the
earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. When the
morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God
shouted for joy?"(Job 38:4, 7)
These scriptures bring up two questions. If there were
no pre-earth life why then would God ask Job where he
was when he created the earth? God knew where he was
but He knew that Job would not be able to remember.
And while God was creating the earth, who were all
those "sons of God" who "shouted for joy"? They were
all of the spirit children of God(us) anxiously
anticipating the completion of His work.
In Genesis before God created Adam and placed him on the earth it says:
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." (Gen 2:1)
The only thing that the word "host" could be refering to are those spirits who would eventually inhabit the
earth God created.
The Lord said to Jeremiah: "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth
out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" (Jer. 1:5).
Here God explains to Jeremiah that He knew him, sanctified him, and ordained him before he was born.
Jeremiah must have existed in some form for this to be possible.
In the New Testament Jesus and his disciples saw a man who had been born blind. The disciples asked if the
man was blind due to his own sins or due to his parent's sins.
"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying,
Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:1-2)
Jesus explained neither the man nor his parents had
sinned, but the man was born blind that the works of
God should be made manifest in him (John 9:3), that
is, so Jesus could heal him. The account in John gives
no reason for us to believe the disciples were
insincere or incorrect in asking if the man had sinned
prior to his birth.
Likewise, Jesus said nothing to indicate it was
impossible for the man to have sinned prior to birth.
These verses thus imply the man could have sinned
prior to birth, that is, he had a pre-earth existence
of some type and had the capacity to sin in that
existence.
SCOTT - Doesn't D&C 19 show that the atonement only occured in
Gethsemane? - 1 Corinthians 1:18; John 3:14; Romans 5:8 all show
that the crucifixtion was an important part of the
atonement, althugh the LDS Church focuses only in the
garden, with some GA's commenting that
Christ suffered and did more there than the cross,
notwithstanding these scriptures.
JOEL - D&C 19 only tells us that a great part of the
suffering happened in Gethsemane. We have never denied
that the cricifixion was an important part of the
atonement. If Christ had not suffered and died on the
cross He would not have been resurrected and made
eternal life possible for us; a very important part of
the atonement.
The Bible says while in Gethsemane:
"And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven,
strengthening him.
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and
his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling
down to the ground." (Luke 22: 44)
Sounds like the Bible agrees that He did a lot of suffering in Gethsamane. Why else would He sweat blood
and need an angel from heaven to give him strength?
There was no angel or sweating of blood mentioned at the cross.
SCOTT - There are not “three degrees of glory,” contra D&C 76.
states that those whose names are NOT in the book of
life will end up in the lake of fire, and Rev.
21:24-27 indicates that those whose names ARE in the
book of life will have access to the very throne of
God in the new heaven and earth with open access
between those places. What other options can there be
besides name-in-book and name-not-in-book? (even D&C
101:65-66 indicates this.) Ultimately we are
either saved or lost and will either spend eternity
with God or apart from Him. All believers will be with
Christ in the one place (though
they will be rewarded differently) - John 12:26,
Galatians 3:29; 4:28-31; Titus 3:7 and James 2:5).
(also see Romans 3:22), contra D&C
76where only those in the Celestial Kingdom will be in
the presence of God and Christ.
JOEL - There are two books of life. Notice verse 12 of Revelation 20 says:
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before
God; and the books were opened: and another book was
opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were
judged out of those things which were written in the
books, according to their works."
Indicating that there is more than one book.
The first book of life contains the names of everyone who has lived on this earth.
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)
Those not found in this book of life include the sons of perdition and Satan and His angels, who never
received a body, therefore never having their names written in the book. They are cast into Hell or outer darkness.
The other book is called the "Lamb's book of life".
"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing
that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination,
or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the
Lamb’s book of life." (Rev. 21:27)
The "Lamb's book of life" contains the names of those
faithful members of God's kingdom who will inherit the
Celestial Kingdom. (See also Rev. 3:5)
Those whose name are not in this book will inherit a lesser kingdom.
It gets confusing because sometimes the Lambs book of life is only called "book of life" also. You won't
agree with much of what I say because some of my answers are based on latter-day revelation from our prophets.
SCOTT - Isn't baptism for the dead on behalf of those who
never knew the gospel and jesus Christ negated in
Mosiah 26: 25-27? These seems to go against baptism
for the dead for those who DID NOT know of the gospel.
JOEL -
"And it shall come to pass that when the second trump
shall sound then shall they that never knew me come
forth and shall stand before me.
And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God,
that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be
redeemed.
And then I will confess unto them that I never knew
them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire
prepared for the devil and his angels." (Mosiah
26:25-27)
Alma is talking to His own people here, some of which
were not believing what was being taught to them about
Christ(See verses 1-2). So these scriptures aren't
talking about those who never heard of Christ it is
about those people who didn't know Christ because they
refused to get to know Him during life, even though
they were given the opportunity. When He said "but
they would not be redeemed", means that they were
given a chance to accept Him but refused. These are
the ones who will not inherit the Celestial Kingdom;
and yes, for these our proxy baptisms may be a waste
of time. But only God can be the judge of who did or
did not have a fair chance of accepting the gospel, so
we perform baptisms in our temples for everyone.
SCOTT - If there was an apostasy, how can one explain
Ephesians 3:21 - how could God be glorified in the
Church “throughout all ages” if the
entire Church fell into apostasy? (also Luke 1:33 ;
Matthew 24:14)
JOEL -
"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."(Ephesians 3:21)
This is just a wish that Paul is expressing as he ends his letter; I don't see it as a prophecy of something that will deffinately happen.
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (Luke 1:33)
His Kingdom always exists, if not here on the earth because of the Apostacy then in heaven where He reigns over it.
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then
shall the end come. (Matt 24:14)
Jesus is talking about the time towards the end of the world, not the time between His death and now. (See verse 3).
SCOTT - According to the Bible in 1 Corinthians 9:1 and
15:7-8, an apostle had to be an eye-witness of Christ.
All the word of Biblical apostles were all confirmed
by miraculous works (Acts 3:3-11; 5:15-16; 9:36-42
and 20:6-12)? Also see 2 Corinthians 12:12. Did you
know that the biblical apostles’ names (12 in all)
will be engraved in the New Jerusalem (Revelations
21:14). Why aren’t the Mormon apostles’ names
engraved - or anywhere to be found - in the New
Jerusalem?
JOEL - The Apostles were only providing their own witness
that Christ lived.Your scriptures only say that the
apostles saw Christ. They don't say it is a
requirement to see Him. Many people saw Christ when He
was here but they were not called Apostles.
Our Apostles travel all over the world to preach the
gospel to the world. They inspire millions of members
to live the gospel and serve others. They have healed
the sick many times. They can speak in tounges and
interpret other languages. They prophesy of things to
come, they dedicate their entire lives in the service
of God.
One of the Twelve Apostles of the church came to our
city and before our congregation told us he was
inspired to prophecy that in the next couple of years
our city would see a significant increase in convert
baptisms. A year after he said this our city had more
than twice the number of baptisms than the year
before. Things like this are wonders and mighty deeds.
You don't hear of these things because they are not
announced to the world. they are kept private and
sacred.
The Apostles names are not yet engraved because the
New Jerusalem hasn't been established yet. This is a
future event that won't happen until the second coming
of Christ.
SCOTT - If those who know of the gospel are said to never
receive forgivness of sins due to killing someone (the
D&C uses "kill"), as seen in the D&C, how come (i)
Nephi killed Laban, notwithstanding he knew of the
gospel and was "enlightened" and (ii) God commanded it
via the spirit, notwithstanding the D&C verses.
JOEL - I don't understand your question. Nephi killed Laban because God told him to, therefore it was not a sin.
You can't require forgiveness for something that God tells you to do and you obey it.
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